Chantix / Champix – Let the Lawsuits Begin

So why have all the anti-tobacco groups suddenly become anti-nicotine? It’s a sad, simple answer. Money. These groups are running scared of e-cigs. They are lobbying “Public Health” to ban a product that has been shown to have an impressive success rate when tested on smokers who didn’t even want to quit! All over the country, well-meaning but ill-informed public health officials are implementing bans on products that offer smokers a much better success rate.

By hypnotherapist Chris Holmes

At the end of this short post is a link to a report from Bloomberg.com about Pfizer paying off the widow of a Minnesota man who killed himself whilst taking Chantix.  The out-of-court settlement was to prevent the case from going to trial.  According to this report, however, this is only “the first of more than 2,500 Chantix cases pending in federal court in Alabama set for trial”, which makes you wonder a) how many there are in the USA all told, and b) how many there are worldwide.

But that is nothing compared to the number that there should be.  I believe that everyone this drug has caused injury or suffering to should have their day in court, because Pfizer knew that there were safety concerns from 2006 onwards, if not before – and even though they are now starting to pay off victims with a tiny crumb of the enormous profits they have made from this over-hyped, failure of a “wonder drug”, they are still aggressively promoting it everywhere.

Pfizer are still denying any proven link and suggesting that the “benefits” (to them) “outweigh the risks” (to you).

After the report, someone calling themselves “Brewlady” posted this comment, which I entirely agree with so I am reproducing it in full here, and if you follow the link at the end, and scroll down to the end of Bloomberg’s report, you will see the original post there.

Brewlady:

 Smoking is bad for your health, but taking Chantix can be fatal.  Anti-tobacco groups continue to tell smokers to turn to pharmaceutical products to attempt to quit smoking, even though the success rate is dismal, less than 10% at one year.  Which means the smoker is still either buying cigarettes or buying Chantix, the patch, nicotine gum, etc.  Funny that anti-tobacco groups don’t tell smokers that their funding comes from both Big Tobacco and Big Pharma.

Tobacco Harm
Reduction is a concept that allows a smoker to continue to use nicotine while eliminating the dangers of smoking.  Swedish snus are proven to be safer than cigarettes, and the cancer statistics in Sweden offer documented proof of this.  Electronic cigarettes contain no tobacco, only propylene glycol, vegetable glycerin, flavorings, and nicotine.  The amount of nicotine varies from zero to about 2% of the mixture, and many smokers are able to completely stop smoking by turning to this safer alternative.  Unlike smoking, the vapor that an e-cig user exhales does not cause harm to bystanders. 

  I stopped smoking over two years ago, and my health has improved tremendously.  But some insurance companies and employers are penalizing adults who are turning to these safer alternatives.  Refusing employment to someone who tests positive for nicotine is discriminatory, especially when there are accurate ways to test for smoking instead.  

So why have all the anti-tobacco groups suddenly become anti-nicotine?  It’s a sad, simple answer.  Money.  These groups are running scared of e-cigs.  They are lobbying “Public Health” to ban a product that has been shown to have an impressive success rate when tested on smokers who didn’t even want to quit!  All over the country, well-meaning but ill-informed public health officials are implementing bans on products that offer smokers a much better success rate.  North Dakota has a ballot question that will ban electronic cigarette use OUTDOORS, similar to the bans passed in cities like Boston.

It’s time for the lies to stop.  We do know what’s in e-liquid, we do know that the vapor isn’t harmful, and we do know that smokers who turn to this product are able to quit.  Personally, the most impressive milestone I reached wasn’t my one year vaping anniversary, or even my two year vaping anniversary, it was the day I realized that I no longer WANTED a cigarette.  This was huge for 36-year smoker who had given up on quitting.  This was something no pharmaceutical product had been able to do.  This was my ticket to becoming smoke free.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-18/pfizer-settles-first-chantix-suicide-case-set-for-trial.html?cmpid=yhoo

 

Champix Chantix: Alyson and Nick Need Help

“How can somone go from a normal man working as a carer to this for no reason and the only thing that changed was that he took champix, we are now on 8 months and things are still not getting better, if you met Nick you would think he had learning difficulties.
I am so frustrated that no one will admit what has caused it and because they will not or cannot diagnose it we can not get any allowances to help look after him. I work full time and betweem my family and myself we look after him.”

by hypnotherapist Chris Holmes

*Update: If you or a loved one has suffered a bad reaction to Champix and you are based in the U.K., you can report it to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) here. The more people do that the clearer the true picture will become. Protect others! Report it.*

The only reason Champix Chantix was passed by the FDA as if it were safe enough to unleash on the public is because the manufacturer, Pfizer, submitted some trial data showing serious side effects “through the wrong channels” which caused them to be missed in a crucial safety review.  Shortly after this news hit the headlines at the end of May 2011, the French Health Minister stopped public funding for the drug citing safety concerns.  The trouble is, the range of side effects is so wide and unpredictable with this drug that many symptoms are not being attributed quickly enough to the actual cause, which has helped Pfizer to avoid a ban on the drug for far too long.  This heartbreaking story is only one of many, but it is a classic example of damage that has never been offically attributed to Champix:

 

“Hi,

I have read your website several times and even given doctor and Psychiatrists printed off copies to show the effect that this drug is having on people. Nick my 54 year old husband took Champix for 10 days in March 2010, he could not get anymore tablets as the nurse was off sick so decided to do without.( he had stopped smoking).  4 days later I had to ring an ambulance at 4 in the morning as he was going in and out of consciouness, the treatment at the hospital was not good but they kept him in for observations at my insistance but could not find anything wrong so sent him home, I told them about champix but they were not interested.”  [Oh, you can’t TELL them anything, Alyson!  You’re not QUALIFIED! This means your words/opinions count for nothing, it’s part of their medical training to just assume we’re all deluded idiots – Ed.]
“Over the next few weeks things got a lot worse, Nick found it difficult to walk, talk, write… he had severe muscle spasms and involuntary muscle movements, he had balance problem and short term memory problems, his behaviour became quite childlike and his brakes were off, he said exactly what he thought. Things came to a head when it was raining and Nick was in the garden in his underwear. I rang our doctor and asked to go private to see someone, she arranged for us to go to hospital, they did all the tests blood, urine, scans, spinal tap but still could find no reason for this to happen, they suggested that Nick saw a psychiatrist, he has been seeing him since June this year, he has said that he can find no reason for Nick’s problems and has passed it back to the hospital.”
“At present Nick suffers short term memory loss, a change in personality and cognitive ability, he takes everything you say literally, he has no awareness of danger and has developed tourretism and obsessive behaviour (touching dotes) he still has balance problems and difficulty walking and gets tired easily.”

“At our last doctor’s appointment I told the doctor I believe that Nick is having fits between a few seconds and a minute we are trying to get a diagnosis and have an appointment with a senior neurologist at the end of this month. Our Gp has told them our suspicions so perhaps this time someone will listen. How can somone go from a normal man working as a carer to this for no reason and the only thing that changed was that he took champix, we are now on 8 months and things are still not getting better, if you met Nick you would think he had learning difficulties.
I am so frustrated that no one will admit what has caused it and because they will not or cannot diagnose it we can not get any allowances to help look after him. I work full time and betweem my family and myself we look after him.”

“If I could turn back time I would but as its not possible I will just keep going and hope someone will take responsibilty and try to stop this drug harming anyone else.  I will always be here for Nick but this company hid certain results to get this drug licensed they need to be stopped.”

 

Yes.  Pfizer need to be stopped, Doc.

14 Days on Champix ruined my life

Champix/Chantix 6

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Champix reviews: Australia bites back

“If there was a drug on the market that caused some users to lose their right leg it would be withdrawn immediately. Because Champix affects your inner core and for that reason its effects are invisible, the symptoms are explained away as a mental issue. In terms of the pharmaceutical industry it is the perfect cover for a drug that is subsidized and earning its maker billions of dollars in revenue.”

By Chris Holmes

*Update: If you or a loved one has suffered a bad reaction to Champix and you are based in the U.K., you can report it to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) here. The more people do that the clearer the true picture will become. Protect others! Report it.*

Just before I get onto this post, here’s the latest Champix review from Kara:  “I have been on champix for only 6 days now, and in my opinion that is 6 days too long.  I have had, in this time alone a ridiculous change in my mental state.  Never had problems besides some depression in my early 20′s, and I feel like I’ve changed in just one week!  I am constantly agitated, irritable and angry ALL of the time.  Something happened the other day that made me question this drug; something so out of character it scared me!  I got in to an argument with my sister’s husband, and literally snapped!  I struck him with a leather strap 3 times, so hard it left bruises!  He just stood there stunned, and all I could think was that I wanted to kill him!  He was stunned because it was like a TOTALLY different person!  I was shocked at myself, and scared; I totally lost control, and I attribute it FULLY to this drug!  I’m a very happy person normally.
The other thing is I can’t stop eating! I go to the gym 5 times a week, and am generally very healthy (besides the smoking), but I haven’t been able to stop eating the past 5 days!!!
Today was my last day on this evil drug. NO MORE!”

The phrase “totally out of character” just keeps cropping up again and again with this drug, doesn’t it?  And what if there had been a knife to hand – or a firearm?  “…all I could think was that I wanted to kill him!”  Ladies and gentlefolk, that is NOT caused by just needing a ciggie.  And that’s after just six days on the drug.  Whew! That’s scary.

Back in 2008, I was contributing information about The Evil Champix and to a website called Australian Women Online and Tim Wilkinson posted several times about his own horrible experience with the drug. This week he posted this message on Truth Will Out:

“Hi.
I left a post on the Womens site on Champix in 2008, I have done extensive research into the drug and also how it was tested, how it was given the ‘all clear’ in Australia and the rules and regulations that govern its perscription.
I have received a number of emails that detail the horror stories of people who have taken Champix with adverse results.
I have also extensively researched the possible legal action that could be taken against Pfizer.
Pfizer will tie up any legal action against them in the courts for years, this will also be dependent on individuals’ medical records, if they can tie up a country (Nigeria) in the international courts for more than a decade…
I have found a legal recourse against them that is foolproof and will scare them to death! If you or anyone close to you has been badly affected by Champix (Chantix in the U.S.) please contact me at [email protected]

If you are not from Australia please put your country of origin in the subject line of your message.”

So I sent Tim the following reply:

“Hi Tim, thanks for your latest message! At first I reproduced it on all the Champix posts on Truth Will Out, but then took out the email address immediately as I thought I had better check with you before publicising that quite so broadly. I wasn’t sure if you meant that I should contact you, or anyone who thought they’d been injured by Champix.

Call me paranoid, but I think it would be a good idea to keep the details of the legal recourse you have discovered out of this email exchange, at least for the time being. So, is it okay for me to provide a link on the various Champix pages of the site so that other sufferers can contact you directly? I really hope you’ve found a way to hit Pfizer where it hurts, they certainly deserve it.

best regards,
Chris”

This was Tim’s response, and it rather looks as though he means business:

Hi Chris.
Please post my address as many times as you wish, from my original post to now I have been sent and heard dozens of horror stories that has surprised me as to not only the commonness of adverse reactions to Champix but also the overwhelmingly similar symptoms that people have had.

I now think that the time has come to take action!

Getting recourse from Pfizer will not take away the pain that people have endured but it will go a very long way to helping people know/understand that they are not alone, and what they went through has nothing to do with strength of character nor more importantly the state of their mental health.

If there was a drug on the market that caused some users to lose their right leg it would be withdrawn immediately. Because Champix affects your inner core and for that reason its effects are invisible, the symptoms are explained away as a mental issue. In terms of the pharmaceutical industry it is the perfect cover for a drug that is subsidized and earning its maker billions of dollars in revenue.

I invite all those who have an adverse experience with Champix (including loved ones and friends of victims) to contact me via email so that I can collate information with the view to setting up meetings in Australia. I ask that any outside of Aus keep themselves posted or contact me with the subject line being their location.

I can make no promises as to the outcome, ‘but better to have tried and failed than to never have tried at all’!

[email protected]

We’re not going to fail, Tim. Already the French Health Minister has stopped using public money to fund Champix on safety grounds, and that’s just the start. I only wish we could get Champix (Chantix in the U.S.) banned today, so that no-one else has to die, or suffer like you did, but unfortunately – thanks to Pfizer’s lies and deception about the true extent of the dangers that have already occurred – there will be more, because Pfizer will not withdraw this killer drug until they are FORCED to do so.  So let’s get on with it, eh?  More and more influencial voices are calling for Champix/Chantix to be banned, we are certainly not on our own in this.

***Update, 31st August 2011:  Since this email exchange I have tried on several occasions to contact Tim, and have been unable to do so.  Since all these attempts were in the latter half of August, this may mean nothing at all – he may be on holiday, or similarly indisposed.  If anyone has tried to contact Tim during the past six weeks and has had similar difficulties, please let me know via the Truth Will Out Contact Page.  I’ll keep trying and keep you posted here.

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Champix review: 14 days on Champix ruined my life, Doc.

“Further to my post (number 87, posted in June 2009) I’m still suffering the same symptoms two and a half years down the line, I’ve been through over 2 years of tests, have lost my job, almost lost wife and children and now, the doctors finally say that they feel that it was Champix that has caused all this. In the very next breath they also said that proving it will be almost impossible and that getting any legal recourse will be even harder, so there we are – 38 years old and basically on the scrap heap until they can hopefully figure out a way to deal with my symptoms. So where do I go from here, I don’t know, the doctors don’t know either, I’ve used all my savings just to live the last couple of years and I can’t function day to day, legal action would be futile and I cant fund it, so all I can do is sit and stare out the window and watch the world go by…

Chantix Champix Reviews: How long does the suffering have to go on?

 

*Update 1: If you or a loved one has suffered a bad reaction to Champix and you are based in the U.K., you can report it to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) here. The more people do that the clearer the true picture will become. Protect others! Report it.*

 

**Update 2, 4th November 2011:

The American Food & Drug Administration (FDA) were recently reported in the Business section of the Washington Post as reassuring smokers that Chantix (known as Champix everywhere outside the USA) “does not increase psychiatric problems”, according to two small studies involving 26,000 smokers.  Since this flies in the face of everything else they know about Chantix already, it is surely irresponsible to say such a thing at this time, because the caveats added to the story further down do not carry anything like the weight of the inevitable headline.  Meanwhile, this article in the Daily Mail reports a study which states exactly the opposite.

Why?  Because the Daily Mail is not bending over backward to assist the pharmaceutical industry – even at the expense of smokers’ lives, if that’s what it takes – whereas the FDA very clearly is.  The testing and approvals system is corrupt as hell, using every possible means of dragging their feet so that Chantix/Champix stays on the market and remains ‘approved’ regardless of how many individual smokers’ lives are ruined by the drug.

The Truth Will Out Campaign has been trying to alert smokers (and doctors) to the dangers of this drug since Autumn of 2008 – so these unnecessary delays drive me pretty crazy – but just imagine the frustration of this commentator on the new Daily Mail report:

“Oh now they make this a huge statement. My mom used it in mid 2007. She ended up in a mental hospital. Thanks Champix. This stuff shouldn’t even be on the market!!! I still can’t understand why it is, with all these accounts of suicide! I read horror story’s back then after this happened to my mom about people killing themselves or having illness such as bi-polar disorder activated in them. My rule with all drugs is, if it hasn’t been on the market for more then 10 years…DO NOT take it. You never want to be the guinea pig. Sorry for all those who ended their lives because they were manipulated this drug.

– Danielle, USA,
3/11/2011 6:08”

 

***Update 3, 21st October 2012: Pfizer settle first Chantix suicide case out of court http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-18/pfizer-settles-first-chantix-suicide-case-set-for-trial.html?cmpid=yhoo

 

14 Days on Champix Ruined My Life, Doc

by hypnotherapist Chris Holmes

I just had an update from Andy, who took Champix (Chantix) for only 14 days.  That was two and a half years ago, and this update is the latest reason I believe this medication should be withdrawn immediately.   This was the original message from Andy in 2009:

“I started taking Champix on December 1st 08 and took them for 14 days, during the time I took them I felt progressively more and more ill, I contacted my doctor twice and was told its normal to feel ill on them and to keep taking them. On 14 th December 08 I was admitted to hospital with chest pains, 1 week later and a lot of tests I was discharged, no diagnosis, just sent home, since then I have been diagnosed with Diabetes and Reynauds Syndrome, have balance problems, problems with my endocrine system and have been off of work (now lost my job), so how do you go from healthy to feeling ill and being admitted to hospital in 14 days, then 6 months later have the same mystery symptoms, my guess is that as Champix works on receptors in the brain it messes with a whole lot more than just dopamine receptors.

“Can I prove this? The answer is no. I’m a layman and the doctors tell me it isn’t the case, they know because they looked on the manufacturers website, so coincidently within the 2 week period I was using champix I turned diabetic, suffered circulatory problems, endocrine system problems and lost my balance and gained vision that comes and goes as it wants, lost the ability to work, drive my car and generally do things that normal people do, also I dont know where the end of this is, nor do the doctors.. If you google Chantix lawsuit you will find that in the US there are a whole heap of people with similar problems to those I’ve suffered, and am suffering now, find another way to give up smoking, I wish I had….”

So how has Andy fared since then? Has it all worn off, is he back to his normal self? Did the advice to stop taking Champix if you suffer any ill effects save him? After all, he was only on it for 14 days. Here’s Andy again:

“Further to my post (number 87, posted in June 2009) I’m still suffering the same symptoms 2.5 years down the line, I’ve been through over 2 years of tests, have lost my job, almost lost wife and children and now, the doctors finally say that they feel that it was Champix that has caused all this.

“In the very next breath they also said that proving it will be almost impossible and that getting any legal recourse will be even harder, so there we are, 38 years old and basically on the scrap heap until they can hopefully figure out a way to deal with my symptoms.

“So where do I go from here, I dont know, the doctors dont know either, I’ve used all my savings just to live the last couple of years and I cant function day to day, legal action would be futile and I cant fund it, so all I can do is sit and stare out the window and watch the world go by, happy days 🙁 ”

So I thought that Andy’s dreadful outcome deserved a post all to itself. After all, it originally appeared on the thread of comments following my “Champix Chantix 4 – Enough Already” post back in 2008, when I was suggesting that too much suffering had already resulted from this horrible drug. Evidently Pfizer and Andy’s doctors did not agree: they had to ruin his life as well, and many others all over the world. Perhaps Andy’s doctors have finally started to get the message but it is way too late for Andy, and now they are suggesting that nothing can be done legally. Actually I beg to differ Andy, let’s not assume that. Failure to withdraw this drug immediately has to be negligence. Every single victim deserves compensation when the dangers were known YEARS AGO. Andy is not the only one to develop diabetes after taking Champix, despite being perfectly healthy beforehand. Check this little lot:

And that was published in May 2008 – six months BEFORE the drug was given to Andy. This killer drug is still being aggressively marketed and there are still doctors and “quit counsellors” handing it out with scarcely any warnings at all. It’s CRIMINAL.

Sufferers: report it. Doctors: don’t prescribe it. Smokers: don’t take it. Pharmacists: don’t stock it. BMA, NICE, MHRA, FDA… you are all responsible for this rogue drug ruining innocent people’s lives. For Christ’s sake, STOP IT NOW. Personally I think that YOU are the ones that should be sued… along with Pfizer, let’s not forget them. They know it hardly works for anyone in the long run anyway, only in the short term. 86% failure at one year. Do you think Andy would have ever taken it if he had known THAT? Do you think ANYONE would? Champix is just the latest fraudulent “wonder drug”, but in terms of the damage it is probably the worst yet. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if any of these drug giants has another nasty little concoction all ready for the hype train that turns out to be even worse, because the testing procedures are no longer looking at the long term effects or results of any new medications now: if it shows ANYTHING that looks like a positive effect, that’s it! That’s all you need, stop the trial right there, get out the big rubber stamp of approval and off we go again.

Alarmingly quick to approve, criminally slow to withdraw – that’s the FDA and the MHRA for you, and that’s why I’m calling them all lackeys of the pharmaceutical industry. And it’s people like Andy and his family who are paying the price for this global drug profiteering.

Nothing we can do, Doc? I’ll tell you what we CAN do, for a start: lose all faith in your ill-informed ‘advice’ – which is no more than drug company hype – and don’t take the tablets. It has really come to something when it takes two years for the patient to get their own doctor to realise what is wrong with the pills, hasn’t it? For shame, Doctor.

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The Truth Will Out, Pfizer!

Champix Chantix 9: Varenicline, murders and suicide

I first heard of Champix (Chantix in the U.S.), otherwise known as varenicline, in May 2007. By July 2008 I had already learned enough about it to arrive at the conclusion that it should never have been passed as if it were safe for use in the UK, Canada or Australia because it was already clear it was causing serious harm in the United States. Before another year had gone by I had made it an express aim of the Truth Will Out Campaign to call for the withdrawal of this extremely unpredictable killer drug. (See Homepage for the original aims of The T.W.O. Campaign.)

*Update: If you or a loved one has suffered a bad reaction to Champix and you are based in the U.K., you can report it to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) here. The more people do that the clearer the true picture will become. Protect others! Report it.*

Why Champix Should Be Withdrawn Immediately  by Chris Holmes

Finally – and this has taken far too long – the call has begun for Champix to be withdrawn from sale because of the dreadful damage it has done to so many smokers and their families.  Dr Michael Siegel, a Professor in the Department of Community Health Sciences at Boston University School of Public Health has explained why the Black Box Warning on the medication – the strongest type of safety warning there is – is still not sufficient to protect the public.  His voice should not be ignored: Dr Siegel has 25 years experience in the field of tobacco control and has published nearly 70 papers on tobacco.  This is what he says about Pfizer’s dangerous brain-boiling tablet:

http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2011/04/rest-of-story-calls-for-removal-of.html

http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2011/04/chantix-why-black-box-warning-is-not.html

I’ve Been Saying This For Years Now

I first heard of Champix (Chantix in the U.S.), otherwise known as varenicline, in May 2007.  By July 2008 I had already learned enough about it to arrive at the conclusion that it should never have been passed as if it were safe for use in the UK, Canada or Australia because it was already clear it was causing serious harm in the United States.  Before another year had gone by I had made it an express aim of the Truth Will Out Campaign to call for the withdrawal of this extremely unpredictable killer drug.  (See Homepage for the original aims of The T.W.O. Campaign.)

That was two years ago.  The foot-dragging of medical authorities all over the world with regard to this evil medication has become truly obscene.   Most recently, New Zealand’s medicines approval body Pharmac – which had hesitated over Champix because of serious concerns regarding its safety – finally did a special ‘package deal’ with Pfizer involving the licensing of a number of drugs, including Champix, making it shockingly clear that their former concerns about the safety of New Zealand smokers could be negotiated away if the price was right.  Never mind that the link with suicides was already well established.  Never mind the fact that by this time, it was apparent that the true success rate of the drug (at the one-year follow-up stage) was only about 14%.  The press in New Zealand churned out the familiar marketing hype about the 55% ‘success rate’ once achieved at the 12 week stage in clinical trials, and a Pfizer spokesperson added the  platitude that the “benefits outweighed the risks”.  What they really meant was, the benefits to THEM outweighed any risks to smokers lives, jobs, health, relationships, liberty etc. as far as THEY were concerned… risks which Pfizer continue to deny can be conclusively linked to the drug anyway.

*Would you like to reply to that denial?  If you or a loved one has suffered a bad reaction to Champix and you are based in the U.K., you can report it to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) here. The more people do that the clearer the true picture will become. Protect others! Report it.  If you live elsewhere, Google “How do I report a bad reaction to a medication in…” (wherever)*

Smokers’ Testimony Doesn’t Count

… as far as Pfizer are concerned, that is.  This is why I encourage all those smokers who have suffered a bad reaction to report it, and make sure their doctor uses the official channels to make that report count.  And although a recent report  found that Champix/Chantix was 18 times more likely to be associated with violent behaviour than any of the other 484 drugs in the study – making it the worst offender of all in terms of aggressive reactions – that is STILL only using the data from the limited number of cases where an official complaint was made against the medication.

Smokers’ testimony counts here, though, on Truth Will Out.  Already we know, from such testimony, that:

– many smokers are STILL not being warned about ANY risks associated with the medication

– many doctors and other medical personnel don’t know much about risks anyway, or dismiss it as ‘media hype’

– many smokers are okay on the drug at first.  THEN it gets nasty

– early results seem much more promising than long-term outcomes actually are

– the last two points have generated massive amounts of PREMATURE praise for the drug

– many sufferers of bad reactions did not know that the drug was to blame

– very bad side effects continue in some people long after coming off the drug.

It seems inevitable that suicidal or violent behaviour in individual cases over the last four years may well have been blamed on the individual rather than the drug.  In court cases or inquests all over the world it seems likely that the connection would probably have been missed, or perhaps dismissed as an attempted excuse.  Certainly the actor Nicolas Williams was thought by some commentators at the time to be using that connection as a way of getting off an assault charge, when he was cleared by a court last June.  But how many have been convicted?

In July last year, Andrew Case  killed his two young daughters and his wife, then hanged himself.  He had been taking Champix, but at the inquest it was stated that none of the drug was found in his blood.  Did the people conducting that inquest fully understand that the horror continues for many Champix victims, sometimes long after the drug is discontinued?  PRETTY IMPORTANT FACT TO BE AWARE OF, DON’T YOU THINK?

A Sure-Fire Way To Get At The Truth About Champix

When people die by their own hand – or as a result of violence, there is always a post-mortem examination.  In this country, and I’m sure in many others, if that person is on any medication from their doctor, a note of this is made as part of the post-mortem and inquest proceedings.  However, if they blew their brains out with a shotgun – or someone else’s brains – then the cause of death is recorded as Death By Shooting.  If they were taking Champix at the time, the cause of death is listed as… Death By Shooting.  This means if Champix really caused that death, Pfizer got away with it.

I suggest that the obvious thing to do is to look back over ALL the violent deaths and suicides which have happened over the last four years, and find out how many of those people were taking Chantix or Champix at the time.  Then compare this information with the same types of cases in the previous four years before that, to see if the Great Global Champix Experiment threw up a spike in the incidence of violent assault, murder and suicide.   Might also be a good idea for anyone accused or convicted of violent behaviour during that time to check for a Champix connection if that was not the way they usually behave.  I’m sure this kind of information could be demanded by anyone under the Freedom of Information Act here in the UK, or obtained by lawyers involved in cases against Pfizer over Chantix/Champix.  Even though this would still be missing the cases where the drug was bought, not prescribed, it would be a very good indicator of the drug’s actual role in all these horror stories and – even if not conclusive in any individual case – enough to get the monstrous concoction banned.

That inevitable event cannot come soon enough.  How many more have to die, Doc?

the book that blew the whistle on the nicotine scam

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Can Champix (Chantix) Cause Seizures/Epilepsy?

Tony West the DOJ Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Division was quoted by news releases, “Illegal conduct and fraud by pharmaceutical companies puts the public health at risk, corrupts medical decisions by health care providers, and costs the government billions of dollars”.

by hypnotherapist Chris Holmes

N.B. Please read the comments after this post, as it now transpires that no-one should be prescribed Champix without having a particular gene test FIRST, or it could trigger epilepsy in people with no previous history of epilepsy.

 

*Update: If you or a loved one has suffered a bad reaction to Champix and you are based in the U.K., you can report it to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) here. The more people do that the clearer the true picture will become. Protect others! Report it.*

Check this out Widow Sues Pfizer

There is a link in that story to the actual lawsuit, and in that there is mention of evidence that Chantix not only triggers suicides, but many other nasty side effects including seizures. Recently I was contacted by a very distressed person who started having severe epileptic fits only two months after starting on the drug, and it has ruined that person’s life.

If anyone else has had seizures or developed epilepsy after taking this drug – or knows of anyone who has – with no previous history of either condition before taking it, please let us know.

The manufacturers of Champix/Chantix, Pfizer, have an impressive criminal record according to this article by Neil Byrne from 2009:

This week Pfizer settled with the Department of Justice for $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the DOJ. It resolved their criminal and civil liability arising from the illegal promotion of certain pharmaceutical products. Pfizer “off labeled” drugs for uses the FDA didn’t previously approve of. $1 billion was allocated to resolve allegations under the civil False Claims Act that Pfizer illegally promoted the drugs Bextra, Geodon an anti-psychotic drug, Zyvox, an antibiotic, and Lyrica, an anti-epileptic drug. What is worse is that Pfizer is a habitual criminal company since they have been found guilty before in a similar case.

Tony West the DOJ Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Division was quoted by news releases, “Illegal conduct and fraud by pharmaceutical companies puts the public health at risk, corrupts medical decisions by health care providers, and costs the government billions of dollars”. Perhaps this massive fine will curtail Pfizer to some degree, but they will likely need at least three strikes. We think this is the beginning of more and more lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies for cross labeling, inadequate tests and warnings, and drugs that create suicidal thoughts, and aggressive behavior. Consumers need to fully perform their due diligence before taking drugs which have clear controversial effects. Chantix and Zyban have a new warning that the drug can produce suicidal thoughts and behavior. Do you want to stop smoking or stop life?

Full article here.

If you live in the U.S. and are connected to a Chantix suicide case, this may be helpful to you.

If you just want to stop smoking safely and easily, more info here.

*Update, 27.02.12.  In EVERY SMOKER a gene test is required before Champix can be prescribed to make sure you do not have any genetic mutations that would make Champix trigger seizures.  Failure to do this in each and every smokers is “playing poker with peoples’ lives”.

Samantha Dearnaley has sent in this rather technical update from her own research… note the P.S. at the end:

Hi Chris,
just thought I would send you this:  Mutations in either a4 or b2 subunits can cause autosomal nocturnal epilepsy. There is evidence that
ADNFLE can be due to dysfunction of neuronal nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAchR). The responsible mutation was subsequently identified as a missense mutation which replaces a serine into phenylalanine (ser248phe) in the a4 subunit gene (CHRNA4) of the neuronal nAchR. This mutation affects the second transmembrane domain (M2) which has been shown to form the wall of the ion channel. This has been the first, and to date only, mutation described in an idiopathic epilepsy. Mutations in mitochondrial DNA, cystatin B and defects causing abnormal neuronal storage, all resulting in neuronal destruction.
Varenicline an a4b2 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor partial agonist, as you can see it works by binding to the same receptors a4b2. I have got this info from Oxford journals, Human molecular genetics.
Kind Regards
Samantha Dearnaley.
PS. I have had another person got in touch yesterday with similar thing, again after Champix. People who want to take this drug should have a gene test done, to see if they have any mutations before they take it, to stop this happening to other people. Its like playing poker with peoples lives. Would this drug still end up costing the NHS less that NRT if they had to do a gene test on everyone?  I don’t think so.
[Chris says:  Not sure it costs less than NRT anyway, though that may have been the hype.  Latest research from Harvard proves NRT doesn’t work at all in the long run – no better than willpower, anyway – didn’t someone say that years ago, though?  Oh yes, it was ME!  Thanks Harvard!  But they’re still prescribing it, aren’t they?  “Evidence-Based-Medicine”, folks!  Evidence is all that’s required to make it bona fide – any evidence will do – even hard evidence that it doesn’t work at all!]

 

The ‘Benefits’ of Champix (Champix Chantix 8)

*Update: If you or a loved one has suffered a bad reaction to Champix and you are based in the U.K., you can report it to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) here. The more people do that the clearer the true picture will become. Protect others! Report it.*

Patricia McLinden (Renfrewshire, Scotland): “Brian was a quiet guy who lived for his wife and daughter… he loved the wild life, he kept falcons, birds of prey and gun dogs… he was a free man who loved life… then that changed… this drug must be stopped, I will do everything in my power to stop it… I’ve told you my story as best I could through my tears, Chris can you edit my story and make it clearer? You can use my real name Patricia McLinden, I’ve nothing to lose. I’ve lost my diamond my luvvy Brian… 26 years we were together…I’m broken now.”

Pfizer continue to market Champix aggressively

In the post below this one, a Pfizer spokeswoman is quoted as suggesting that the benefits of Champix “outweigh the risks”.

I refute that, first on the basis that the “benefits” being suggested – up to 50% success – are sheer hype, the real long-term outcome being about 14% success, which is rubbish. Secondly because the damage being done by Champix (Chantix in the U.S.) goes largely unreported, as was very nearly the case with Patricia McLinden’s story.

UNTOLD Misery Caused By Champix

As far as Pfizer is concerned, if a case of Champix side effects causing harm or death isn’t actually reported through the official channels, then IT DIDN’T HAPPEN. They know perfectly well that a certain proportion of bereaved spouses or family members won’t even know that their loved one was taking medication, and even the ones that do may well not realise that it can cause that kind of harm. So that’s two batches of victims for which Pfizer will never have to answer, and when the drug is being monitored for risk, none of that will be taken into account.

In all processes of risk assessment, the only data that will ever be considered is the data which passes through the official channels of complaint against the medication. Yet the drug company know that many people who suffer side effects do not realise they are caused by Champix, or even that they ARE side effects. Brian’s case demonstrates just how tragic this can be, because it is the mind that is affected so he couldn’t assess himself, and Patricia had no idea that Champix – which is, after all, an ‘approved’ medication – could change someone’s personality so rapidly, especially since he had taken it before:

“My husband started taking Champix last year, then came off them because they made him feel sick, bad nightmares… sleep was so bad. March 2010 he started taking them again. I noticed a change in him, I said: “Brian, what’s wrong? You’re so moody and grumpy!” He said he was tired. I said: “It’s your job, with the heavy work”, but he still woke up in the middle of the night, going to the bathroom then downstairs for a cig. On April 8th I came home from work, Brian was not himself. I said: “What’s up luvvy?” He said “I’m tired”, then went to bed. April 9th he phoned his work, said he was not going in and was taking a week’s holiday. Friday was a lovely day so I said “Let’s go out”, but he would not…

“10th April Brian went out for a walk with the dogs. He was away for hours, so I went to look for him. I found him wandering the fields with his dog and his gun… Saturday night Brian took his Champix after dinner… [Editor: N.B. this clearly indicates that neither of them suspected the medication at all, even at this point in developments] …watched TV, he was very quiet. Then things went wrong: he was a bit on edge, so I said “What’s up luvvy, tell me please, Brian!” He said “It’s okay Trish, I’m fine.”

“11th April: 10.30 am Brian went out with the dogs. He phoned me every hour, saying he loved me, he’s sorry for ruining my life… I said “I’m driving to come and get you,” but he said “No”. He was not Brian on the phone, paranoid about stuff, talking rubbish… so I phoned the police. He texted me “I LOVE YOU”… then he shot himself at 2.45 pm 11th April 2010.”

Pfizer, your lousy medication has no benefits that outweigh these risks, you ruthless, heartless, money-grabbing bastards. If I were that spokesperson, and I read this account I would quit my post immediately, and do some sort of penance, for fear that I would never sleep peacefully again.

Two Further Chances for the Story to Remain Untold

Patricia first contacted me through the “Contact Us” email facility on the Truth Will Out site, but as I get quite a lot of marketing spam through that, my spam filter had chucked it into the Junk Mail file and I hadn’t noticed. Once I picked it up, I began an email exchange and at some point I asked Patricia at what point did she make the connection with Champix? Obviously she might never have done, just as I might never have noticed her email in the junk file. She said that after Brian’s death she received an email “from his friend in the USA asking me about him taking Champix, then it just hit me. I read the information about it, and found that that was the cause of his behaviour.”

In the USA, the Champix Experiment has been going on for a few years now, they’re a bit ahead of us. The first Champix-related death to hit the headlines in the USA was that of Carter Albrecht which happened in 2007. That tragedy, and all those that have followed have (mysteriously) done nothing to prevent country after country “approving” this largely useless and completely unpredictable drug.

To Any Skeptics

If you have stumbled upon this and are inclined to think that this is just one case, and therefore inconclusive, please read all the comments that have followed all the posts that touch on the subject of Champix published on this site, then look at all the other Champix horror stories on the ‘net. I believe you will see a pattern forming.

Patricia emailed me today : “I will never settle in my life until this drug is stopped… Chris thank you so much for all your help. Please put my real name, and my late husband. Let me know if there is anything more I can do to get this evil drug stopped.”

Now stop it from happening in New Zealand too

To all the smokers in New Zealand: After first deciding not to fund this drug with public money in your country, on the grounds that it was not safe and there was no real evidence it worked any better (in terms of long-term outcomes, the only ones that count) than nicotine gum, Pharmac have mysteriously done an about face and “cautiously” approved it. Pharmac: That is the most inappropriate use of the word “cautiously” I have ever encountered. To approve this drug at this point in the horror story looks more like corruption than caution, so before this actually gets rolled out as a sickening reality in November, you’d better think again before this tragedy is replayed in your own land in loving, happy family homes.

Doctors: don’t prescribe it. It’s bloody dangerous, and not just to people who have had depression before, it’ll fry anyone’s brains, apparently at random. Do you want to do that to a family on your books?

Drug Approval Bodies in every country in the world: we’re watching. We’re waiting. We’re counting. Please tells us: How many victims like Brian and Patricia do you require, exactly, before you rescind the Champix Licence-To-Print-Money-And-Kill-Innocent-People?

Smokers, non-smokers – all NORMAL people: please use the internet to pass this story on. It will SAVE LIVES… and it is the only possible comfort we can offer Patricia.

In loving memory of Brian McLinden.

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Champix for New Zealand next

 

*Update: If you or a loved one has suffered a bad reaction to Champix and you are based in the U.K., you can report it to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) here. The more people do that the clearer the true picture will become. Protect others! Report it.*

Calling all smokers in New Zealand, and their loved ones: this is what is heading your way in November 2010 **Update December 2010: it’s already approved, but New Zealanders need to be warned about taking Champix:

“…the crashing wave of deep and dark depression, bursting into tears for no reason at all, the feeling of no light in the world and that nobody would even care if you were gone and worst of them all the belief that that low dark feeling was something that could only be fixed by taking your own life. Ive just lived this hell after taking Champix for a mere 4 weeks, first 3 were fine but wow that 4th week and i roller-coasted from ready to punch someone in the face for talking too loudly to wanting to floor my car 200 kms into a wall. I had read online about people reactions before mine kicked in and honestly thought everyone was a nut-job bad mouthing a drug that worked as i had stopped smoking and felt great, but let me tell anyone who reads this and brushes off the more extreme sounding posts IT IS NO JOKE. I went from wanting to simply give up smoking one week to sitting in a mental health clinic 4 weeks later continually in disbelief at how the hell i managed to end up there.” (Andrew)

This is becoming a matter of urgent concern to smokers anywhere, but particularly any smokers in New Zealand, following a story in the New Zealand Herald concerning the approval of public funding for Champix despite concerns about suicides linked to the drug – a story which partially reveals the kind of dodgy deals drug companies do with governments to push them into accepting things they’re not altogether happy about. In this case Champix was sold as part of a package including a number of drugs, and the suggestion is that the NZ government could not get those drugs at that price without taking Champix as well – a sharp practice that should frankly be illegal where medications are concerned, especially a medication that has already been linked to deaths, which is exactly what the former hesitation was about. Particularly suspect is the fact that the New Zealand government drug funding body Pharmac has apparently changed its mind about Champix for no good reason at all – see extract below from NZ Herald.co.nz:

“Pharmac medical director Peter Moody said medical advisers had “cautiously endorsed” the use of Champix.

The agency is calling for public submissions on the package deal from Pfizer before the taxpayer subsidy kicks in on November 1.

“Quite often [drug] companies will offer as a package a number of medications at the same time. We will look at the total deal and look at the benefits we’re getting.”

He said package deals meant all the drugs from the company had to be taken. “You can’t cherry pick.”

A Pharmac spokesman said the price reduction on Champix had been agreed and “in return for that we get two new products and wider access to one other product”.

A spokeswoman for Pfizer said the package deal was suggested by Pharmac, rather than the other way around. The drug company had submitted four separate applications to get the drugs funded.

She said the benefits of Champix outweighed the risks. The subsidy meant “more people will be able to access Champix to improve their chances of quitting smoking”.

Pharmac had twice considered backing Champix but rejected the move because of safety concerns.

Pharmac papers stated that it “appears increasingly likely that there is an association between varenicline [Champix] and serious neuro-psychiatric events”.

It also questioned whether Champix was as successful as nicotine replacement therapies.”

Yeah – quite right too: although earlier in the piece reporter David Fisher described Champix as: “a hugely successful drug used to quit smoking” which is “estimated to be successful in up to half the cases in which people use it to try to stop smoking”, in fact it is nothing of the kind. Long term success rates are about 14% for Champix, about the same as Zyban and only a little higher than Nicotine Replacement Poisoning, which might be pretty useless but at least it doesn’t make anyone kill themselves.

Put simply, this drug should NOT be approved for public funding in New Zealand because the success rate is pure hype and there are smokers alive and well in New Zealand today who will be dead within the year if the drug is made widely available. That means husbands and wives becoming bereaved single parents, kids left without a mum or a dad – and all because of cynical drug company lies and corruption. While there’s still time, I’m going to try to draw attention to this crazy decision and hopefully the innocent smokers of New Zealand can yet be saved from having the same evil stunt pulled on them as the innocent Champix victims in the USA, the UK and Australia.

Hypnotherapy is the best method for smoking cessation: New Scientist magazine

Here’s the NZ Herald article in full

Actual failure rate for Champix here.

18.09.10: I received this message by email, here it is in full:

Andrew wrote:
“Chris, i stumbled onto your site while looking up the side effects or as the Drs
have since told me “adverse effects” of Champix, i immediatly found
solace in the fact that many people’s descriptions matched mine, the crashing
wave of deep and dark depression, bursting into tears for no reason at all, the
feeling of no light in the world and that nobody would even care if you were
gone and worst of them all the belief that that low dark feeling was something
that could only be fixed by taking your own life. Ive just lived this hell after
taking Champix for a mere 4 weeks, first 3 were fine but wow that 4th week and i
roller-coasted from ready to punch someone in the face for talking to loudly to
wanting to floor my car 200 kms into a wall. I had read online about people
reactions before mine kicked in and honestly thought everyone was a nut-job bad
mouthing a drug that worked as i had stopped smoking and felt great, but let me
tell anyone who reads this and brushes off the more extreme sounding posts IT IS
NO JOKE. I went from wanting to simply give up smoking one week to sitting in a
mental health clinic 4 weeks later continually in disbelief at how the hell i
managed to end up there.

Now that Ive had my say to people who don’t believe it happens i want to give
every person that has fallen into that deep depression and suicidal thoughts
that have searched the web for info some hope and a true light at the end of the
tunnel because it was the one thing i was searching for but did not find. The
cause of your feelings is 100% Champix related and your brain WILL experience
happiness and normal thinking again, everyone’s neurotransmitters work
differently but what Ive found is however long it actually took the Champix to
work will roughly decide how long your brain takes to return to normal. Im no Dr
by any means but i was prescribed a low dosage of Valium / diazepan to
“take the edge off” from my Dr who told me in his experience giving
anti depressants not only didn’t work with champix related depression but in
some cases made it worse. Let me tell you the Valium worked to kill the anxiety
that came from continually thinking about killing myself and within a few days
the thoughts the anger and those messed up dreams stopped. So please if your
having the side effects as extreme as some i urge you to see your Dr or if your
in Australia get a referral to the mental access team through the various
Hospitals they helped me so much and i owe them my life literally. Scarily
enough their own words to me were you aren’t the first and you definitely wont
be the last to suffer this from Champix. I implore anyone considering this drug
to really think hard as it seems the chances of you successfully quitting aren’t
far ahead of the chance you’ll be sitting in a psyche ward as i did, even as bad
as cold turkey can feel its not even 1/1000 of how bad the reaction that i
experienced is. My only wish is to spread this exact message through as many
blogs and info sites about bad reactions to Champix, Chris feel free to use my
post anywhere you like, people suffering the effects NEED to see that there is
light at the end of this black tunnel.”

There are many more disturbing accounts like this in the Champix Chantix blog section of this site, and on many other blogs on the web. My urgent advice to smokers is to read around before deciding whether to try this medication.

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Just in case you thought it was just me…

…when I suggested that the Department of Health KNEW THEY WERE LYING when they made all those claims for the supposed ‘effectiveness’ of nicotine replacement poisoning:

http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2010/03/17/patrick-basham-the-doh-is-wrong-about-cessation/

Now: the plot thickens, as we hear rumours that the ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE is very likely to be BANNED in the U.K. towards the end of June – the only competition for nicotine replacement products made by drug companies. Then this message has come in from across the pond:

 Subject: J & J merger with Pfizer Consumer Health gives J & J a monopoly in the pharmaceutical nicotine marketplace

What precautions have been taken by the EU to prevent this monopolistic business practice?  
Additionally, since Johnson & Johnson’s (J & J) partner Robert Wood Johnson Foundation (RWJF) has been funding groups ($446+ million) like the American Lung Assoc., CTFK, ASH, etc. to lobby in favor of smoking bans around the world, they are unfairly manipulating the marketplace in order to increase sales to their monopoly stranglehold, pharmaceutical nicotine, commonly referred to as rent seeking legislation.
So all you Lab Rats over on the Bad Science blog, all you Ben Goldacre + Edzard Ersnt groupies who scoff at any mention of Big Pharma being up to no good, conspiracies involving government departments and evil global interests using misinformation disguised as ‘science’ to manipulate smokers’ choices simply to sell them a useless poison posing as a medication…
…wake up and smell the corruption.
Of course, there is a way around all of this. Find a good hypnotherapist and ditch the lot.  And before anyone suggests that’s just ME trying to make money out of smokers, here’s the difference: the vast majority of my smoking clients will be saving £1,800 every year they live after that, which will be likely to be a lot more years than if they listen to those liars at the Department of Stealth.

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Killer Chantix Champix Isn’t Magic

by Chris Holmes

*Update: If you or a loved one has suffered a bad reaction to Champix and you are based in the U.K., you can report it to the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) here. The more people do that the clearer the true picture will become. Protect others! Report it.*

The weird and wonderful internet just threw up another amusing splinter of craziness in the form of an email message, sent through the Truth Will Out Contact Form facility, from a website called ChampixMagic.  It purported to be from a person called Jay, and it said:

Jay wrote:
Dear sir/webmaster,
I am the responsible person for link exchange at chantixmagic.com  I visited your site and feel, it’s a quality one and relevant to my site theme. So I hope that you would consider link exchange with us. If you determine that a link to our site is appropriate, Please let me know whether you are interested or not. If yes please provide your site info.

I find it very hard to believe that Jay has ever visited the Truth Will Out site.  I think it is much more probable that this message is sent out automatically to any site that mentions Champix a lot.  There follows here an excerpt from one of my earlier posts that mentioned it under the heading CHANTIX CHAMPIX KILLS, BUT A.S.H. WON’T TELL THE SMOKERS, and it also mentions the ChampixMagic site:

Now look at this, which purports to be a “Trusted Information Bank” about Champix (Chantix).  At the base of the page, a disclaimer states “We don’t encourage the buying and selling of Chantix without prescription”, which is a weird thing to claim when you can buy it right there, via the site!  It mentions nothing about any dangers, but says:

“Chantix is the latest blockbuster drug approved by the FDA on May 11, 2006 that is indicated as an aid to quit smoking. Manufactured by Pfizer Inc., Chantix offers a new approach, different from the existing smoking cessation therapies to quit smoking.”

It does not mention that the drug is now under investigation by the FDA for serious side effects.   Instead it uses crude scare-tactics in the first two, very badly written paragraphs about the dangers of smoking to suggest that Chantix is your ‘only hope’, if you are a smoker, to escape ‘certain death’. The site is called ChantixMagic and it is dangerously devoid of any serious warnings about how this medication could wreck your life or even end it.

In reality, Champix is a pretty faint hope because it doesn’t work for at least 80% of smokers even with all that hype.  In contrast, expert hypnotherapy has a 60% success rate in first sessions alone.  If you include the successes that took more than one session (some do, it’s inevitable, people are not all the same) then the overall success rate is well over 80% PROVIDED the therapist is a smoking cessation specialist with plenty of experience.

I should also qualify the above statement by saying that I’m talking about success rates in countries in which tobacco use is in general decline.  I work in the U.K. where only about 26% of adults still smoke, so smoking is not the norm.  In countries like Greece and China where there is a much greater proportion of smokers, the long-term success-rate of hypnotherapy would not be as high because the influence of other people smoking has a bearing on relapse rates for all quitting methods, including hypnotherapy – as does the general social perception of what is “the norm”.

So you see, ChampixMagic, I already have a link to your site but I don’t think it was quite what you had in mind.  Since all you want to do is sell more prescription medications without prescriptions or proper warnings regardless of whether it harms or kills people, I suggest you go throw yourself off a cliff.

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